Ep. 18 - What's a Brown Boy Going to Bring to Fashion? — Jatin Patel on Class, Identity & Building Without Permission - Everyday Conversations

0:00 People at the time and that were being everyday real at that stage. It was like one of the interviews I'd went to and it was what's a brown boy going to bring to the fashion industry? And at that stage, being quite naive and enthusiastic and everything else, it was really taken aback by it. That gave me fuel, that gave me fire, that gave me like, well, I'll show you what brown boy is going to. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Everyday Conversations, and I'm your host, Amin Mumbani. If you haven't subscribed yet, go do that.

0:41 New episodes dropping every Sunday and Wednesday. Today's guest designs armor, not the medieval kind, the variable kind. He builds best folk fashion pieces designed to help people feel powerful, seen and transformed. But before any of that, he was a working class kid without an obvious way in. Learning that confidence isn't something you are given, it's something you build piece by piece. Let's welcome him, Jatin. Welcome to Everyday Conversations. Hello there. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

1:15 How are you, Jatin? How is everything? Yeah, I'm very well. Thank you. You know, a balance of work and life. And I guess I was saying earlier, being a creative, then there's no real boundaries as such and everything's always merged as one.

1:34 That's great. So Chetan, you have said that fashion became a way to understand power, protection and self-expression. When did the clothing first mean something more to you than just clothing?

1:49 I, I guess there was quite a few defining moments when I sort of realised the power of clothing and I guess it was from being such a young child as well and having sort of limited resources and being creative and making something. But it was, I say more my sort of youth years when you're sort of going out a bit more and you're sort of developing your own identity to see what sort of pieces and clothing was a great language to express who you were.

2:23 Perfect. And how did you feel that? OK, it's the first step and just more than clothing and I'm so creative and I'll do everything. How was the initial start? As in in into the fashion as such or as clothing. So a couple of ways to answer that. I think for me, clothing again, you know, the idea of who I was was a good way to express that. But it also then, you know, started learning different cues and almost uniforms of where you could wear certain things and where you couldn't wear certain things growing up in the sort of 80s, nineties in England.

3:02 And then, you know, just being a bit of a disruptor. I guess since then it was always where can we push the boundaries and where can we sort of add different cues and symbols that sort of highlighted to who I was, what I wanted to be, and also what I guess what I wanted to fit into. So you came from a working class background with no obvious access into fashion. So what did the very first step into this world actually look like for you? Just actually look like for you. OK, I'm going to start with that.

3:32 It was like an explosion of creativity. That was the initial wow moment that I had that I thought, yes, fashion is going to be the direction. But to get to that and explain the context, back in the 90s I was doing my A levels and I was at a very traditional British school. So I'm really grateful for learning that at the time of doing our A level and, you know, compositional study, art history, learning the rules as such. And then it was leaving that and going to art college where it was just a whole different world.

4:10 And it was, you know, you could do this, you could do that, and you can apply your creativity to any discipline. And then it was the idea for me of merging that sort of artistic background into clothing that always tells a story. And it almost or always does show who you are or who you are not and what you want to conceal. And that's where, for me, that sort of curiosity really rose. If How do we show who we are by what we wear and what we do? That's amazing saying, babe. So, John, was there a specific moment you remember questioning whether you were allowed to take up the space in this industry?

4:53 Again, let's put this into context. Yes, you know, like, like any industry in any life, you, you've got your good points and your bad points. And you know, I'm going to put it down as a as a precursor at the moment it's about people. So after graduation, doing my degree, going out and looking for jobs and trying to get into the design industry, which, you know, was very insular and very circular and to break in was very difficult. And you know, equally as like life always is, you've got one extreme to the other.

5:27 There was always people there to help and support and guide you. But equally there were other people there that one didn't want you in. And, you know, we could always question why those reasons were, but there were certain points where I thought, am I hitting a brick wall here because the access just wasn't happening to get into it. And then, you know, it was through that afterwards that I thought, why not set up your own thing and let's see where this leads. So that question of whether you were allowed to take up space is really the thread that runs through everything you have built.

6:02 Yes, yes, you know, and being much, I'm coming into my 50s now. So I've had a lot of experience and a lot of lot of roads that we've travelled and I've learnt a lot. And, and I guess that then comes back to the whole thread of becoming resilient and then almost using that disappointment and negativity and roadblocks to increase your determination to fight harder and to almost prove your worth. But then, you know, early on, I guess it was about proving my worth to all the people, but now it's proving my worth to myself.

6:39 And now it's about what I will accept and what I won't accept. And, you know, building your own table, building your own networks. So let's talk something about Kalika's armour. How did this name came on? So yeah, I was born up through Hinduism. So Kalika, the goddess, the archetype of renewal, strength, you know, the extreme of 1 to the other. And it's sort of, I came to that concept while I was studying on my masters and it was the idea of womanhood at that stage of one side being very soft, ultra feminine, and then to the extreme, very fierce, very dark, very powerful.

7:22 And the idea was how do we merge those feelings and emotions through clothing that allow people to sort of show what they want to show and not show what they don't want to show? So the idea of some of our clothes or some of the offerings that we have is very transparent fabrics, you know, so it extenuates the female body and the female form and it shows and it allows the wearer to show what they want. But again, it's that whole idea. If you can look but you can't touch, it's me. I'm in control. I decide what to do.

7:58 And that's that whole concept of armour, clothing being your second skin and A and a way to protect, but also a way to defend and A and a way to almost go to battle in today's modern world. So as you said that what we wear helps us step into what we are or who we are becoming. So this is the whole thing and whole idea that Kalika's armor is built on. Yes. So walk me through a specific piece that did that for someone. OK, so say, OK, let's let's go back to the sheer addresses that we talk about. So you know, beautiful black silk tool, then embellished and embroidered so it covers certain areas of the body and working with the client is how comfortable are you with showing certain pieces?

8:50 You know, ultimately the, the clothes the wearer has to wear the clothes, not the clothes being worn. So it's still coming through your personality and your idea or everything. So it's about transformation and it's also about empowerment. So when you're working with a client, you get to really learn where their pain points are or where they're not happy with certain areas of their body or where they'd like to, you know, extenuate certain things or, you know, I'm really happy with this bit. I've been working really hard in the gym.

9:21 So, you know, let's have a little, let's lower the neckline a little bit, or I'm not so happy with my sleeves. So let's make them a little bit longer, but let's turn that into a design feature. And so it's working with the character, then sort of showcase what they want to showcase. And then the beauty of what we do is is all commissioned one off. So therefore we can literally build on the person and so it, you know, it shows how confident they want to be or not be. So wearing Calicas, yeah, yeah, wearing Calicas, armour wearing, and it gives people's a way of confidence.

10:00 That's it. That's exactly it. So it's obviously the government, the government, the local, the small collection that we create for clients, but it's also that process. It's a very personal 1 to 1 and you really get to learn the client, the clients, you know, desires what their vision is. And because we're occasion wear in that sense, most people are creating special looks and special milestones or ceremonies or whatever that may be. So, you know, there are certain limits or let's rephrase that, certain requirements to say from working with the bride, we need to know where she's getting married to the venue, you know, and then to know what's the entrance to the actual ceremony, How big is the entrance?

10:44 It's pointless as creating a massive 6 foot gown if ultimately she's not going to be able to walk through it. So it's learning all those details and then it's about what do you want to say on that on that day? What are you saying about yourself as you're stepping into your new chapter? So what I understood is that Jatin and his team enters into the whole area of designing from brides, the whole venue, the wedding, the attire, the ambience to design the clothes especially for the bride. Absolutely, absolutely.

11:17 And then we can work. With that's so impressive, that's so impressive actually, because I have I have seen many fashion shows, many fashion designers, but this is something unique which you stated that the venue and the look and feel of the ambience and the entire area arena and then the dress is designed. So I think this is something giving a bride little more confidence through walking on the aisle of the area. Yeah, absolutely. You know, part of the service that we offer is that you want to make the whole experience stress free for the, for the bride or the groom or whoever you're working with because they've got usually got so much else going on in their life and they're balancing everything.

12:04 So we're almost like that safe space where they can come, they can offload, they can do whatever they need to do. And then they put it in our trust and then we, we can be there at the venue on the day. So everything's steamed, pressed, dressed. We can help with hair and makeup within our network. We can find, you know, work with jewellery partners that we know to make sure that it's a full 360 look. Not, you know, and it doesn't end soon as the garment leaves a studio door. It's the aftercare as well.

12:33 It's everything else along those lines. And it's, you know, down to the details of the, the client will get to choose to the colour of the beads, to the colour combination of the threads, the linings, you know, the linings. We, we like to offer stuff on the inside that nobody else can see but the client does. So we had the client a bride and she was always quite punky bit of attitude, always wanted to make a statement. But for the actual ceremony she wanted something quite traditional, classic. So the beautiful silk organza and Dutchess satin mix, but then on the inside we lined it completely in a leopard print satin so that when she took that off of a night, that was her reveal to her husband.

13:23 So she still had a bit of her real personality into it.

13:28 That's something very unique, actually. We like to think so. That's great. So I think you have talked about setbacks and financial pressure along the way. What was the closest you care you come to walking away from this entirely? Oh, many, many points. Share some. Share some. Okay, so after doing my masters as well and having some time working with different designers, so sort of the higher couture side and then High Street to learn the whole industry. And then I decided to set up the brand. And then we used to showcase at Fashion Week ready to wear side of it at the Royal Academy.

14:09 And those expenses and costs were just so much because you know, obviously then you've got to get invites printed, you've got to get your marketing, your lookbooks and your without being able to invest in a proper PR company in those days. So it was always feeling like we were fighting the real battle that you couldn't compete with the big boys as such with their marketing budgets. So at at those points I thought, you know, is it really worth it? So I guess I took a step back from Fashion Week and then we really then decided to concentrate direct to client.

14:41 And that has been a wonderful learning curve because then, you know, Fashion Week, you're dealing with sample sizes, sample model sizes, which you know, looks great on the catwalk. But ultimately we designed for real people, real clothes and real bodies, so. I was coming, I was coming onto the fashion show and Cat Fox as well. So how many fashion shows and Cat Fox you have been into? Oh, I couldn't tell you an exact number, but we're talking over the years. You gotta remember being at this a long time.

15:12 You gotta talk at least 30-40 something along those lines over the years. And how old is this Kalika's armor? So what about 15 years in different iterations? And you know, it's, it's been an interesting, right. Going back to the earlier question as well, different economic situations in the country as well and globally have affected everything. Because you know, what we do, there is an investment to it because of the process and the investment in the patterns, the development, the draping. And I guess it was just, you know, sometimes it has been feast or famine.

15:52 We've had clients coming out our ears at some stages. And other times you're sort of like, Oh my God, what we're going to do now where we're going to pick these clients. So, but then I'm a firm believer in fate, destiny mixed in with effort and action. So as long as I'm out there doing something, thank God something always comes and we we work it through, but at different stages. I have thought when the work's powered up or there's no working coming in, do I just give up, go get myself a job, be doing 9 to 5, I'd be happy.

16:26 But deep down I know I'd never be happy doing that. I think a firm believer of faith, God and universe. It leads you to solve many problems internally actually. Absolutely. I think that's a great way of putting it. True. One question was disturbing me to ask you that Kalika's armor is named as completely a Desi attire something. So are you dealing just in the Desi Indian bridal couture thing or completely invested as well? I'd say it's the second at the moment we're, we're, we're developing much more into the, the seaside offering as well.

17:11 But you know, it, it, it comes down to that whole idea of faith and archetypes. That's why I call Kalika the archetype and the goddess because I, I'm a firm believer. It's a universal energy and a being and a concept of transformation. That idea of looking inwards and being able to hold yourself to account and to develop yourself to know, well, well, come on, let's be real, you know, let you know it's we're, we're, we're human beings and we all experience every emotion, good or bad, one extreme to the other, without putting any labels on.

17:50 So I think, you know, that is a real development. And me personally, although brought up with Hinduism, I'd say I'm more spiritual in that idea that spirituality allows me to question, allows me to challenge, allows me to experience my own experience with this higher being that we call God. And so the idea of Kalika, I didn't want to restrain it to say, oh, you know, it's specific to Hindus or specific to Desis. Specific to not, It's not. It's the energy of transformation. And that what isn't right for you must end for new rebirth to happen.

18:24 And so the idea of coming to us a new armor is it's like a rebirth for your mouth, for your milestone, for your next chapter.

18:33 That's great. So you let ideas test for six years alongside your creative work. How did that leadership role change how you build Kalika's armor? It's a brilliant question. So ideas test came about in lockdown when the whole world was locked up, literally wasn't it because of COVID? COVID. So we couldn't get any access into the studio, couldn't do anything. But you know, as a creative person, as a general human being, I just can't sit and not do anything, whatever the positives or negatives around that are.

19:07 But I entered into the sort of cultural sphere and it was the idea of where we are in Medway and about strengthening the creative offering. And for me, it's always about trying to put into place what I wish was available when I was younger, when I was at that stage. And as a Brown man, if I can help or show directions, not just to people of colour but to any young person that wants to go out and put the effort and work in and make something of themselves. The more doors we can hold open and push forward, the better.

19:40 So ideas test then gave me the, the, the learnings and the concept of agency governance, putting systems into place, building ecosystems, and also really taking our creativity to the places where it's least absorbed, least experienced. And so those sparks of of excitement and creativity can help people follow their own path. Jatin, I want to ask you that you have said that you want this conversation to stay purposeful and never turn personal identity into the headline. So but you are also ready to talk honestly about identity, class and confidence.

20:28 How do you hold? How do you? Yeah. So how do you hold both of those at once, being fully open but never sensationalized? That's a very good question. I think maybe that just comes down to who I am and what I've learned and my experiences and, and how I want to live my life. You know, that that being out is a part of my life. It's a part of who I am. That whole concept of intersectionality, it's, it's an element of it. It doesn't define who I am. It allows me to be who I am. It's a truth, it's a reality.

21:06 It's how I was born, but that then isn't the foundation that I built the rest of my life on. I'm more interested in my character and my being of Can I be a service? Have I got a purpose that can help? What am I giving back as well as giving and receiving? So if I talk about identity and who Jatin is. So when Jatin walks into the room with fashion brand or creative. So if you remove this fashion stylist creativity from Jatin, who is Jatin in real? Who am I? That's that's a good question. Introspection has helped me a lot.

21:51 I'd like to believe that I'm someone that people can trust, that some that people can rely on. If I commit to something, I will always do 100% to deliver truthfulness and somebody that people can get good advice from from, and I can only give my own personal lived experiences. Actually, that's a very good thing you said, because I discussed this in previous episodes as well, that a person who is certified in something and a person who is experienced by lived experiences, that person can give more, better solution and advice rather than the person who has some abbreviations next to his name or who is certified.

22:36 Yes, yeah. And that that's a whole bigger question isn't about titles. And in the last 10 years, I've met lots of people with very grand titles and and so many people become defined by that title. And I'm more about not, not to say there's nothing wrong with that, but then I'm more about what is the work that we're here to do? Are we making that impact? You know, it doesn't matter if you're assistant or second assistant or third or top, If we're here to do a role, we need to work together and find out what we need to achieve and how we're going to achieve it.

23:08 And sometimes in the title, the humanity is lost, actually. Yes, definitely. And as I always say to people, I've learnt a lot in my life through how not to do things, how through failure. Even in the practical studio side, when you first started out and you're making clothes, you know, it's like, ah, don't do that at this stage. And make sure that you cut this at the right length. Make sure this is done. It leaves leave enough steam allowance or make sure this is steam, you know. So it's a lot of practice, trial and error, and in life as well.

23:40 Actually, failure makes us learn more things in a better way. Justin, earlier we talked about questioning whether you were allowed to take up space. Has that feeling fully gone or does it still show up sometimes even now that Kalika's armor is real? How does it feeling it comes? It's yeah. And again, being being human, sometimes that always pops up, Imposter syndrome, as they call it. Certain times I get anxious, other times I'm ultra confident. Other times it's a real, is this right? You know, coming onto this podcast before half an hour before, I was like, am I doing the right thing?

24:22 Is this going to, you know, how am I going to be perceived? Will this work? But then I kind of for me is to build those systems in place for me to do to cope and deal with everything. It was like, OK, I've had my anxious anxiousness. I feel it. Allow that feeling to happen. Now. Deep breath. Let's do it. Take that leap of faith. That's what that's what my podcast is all about. It's like I ask you to fill an in tech form so I know who is Jatin and then I'm asking you something similar to that only.

24:57 And then the follow up questions build up, build up, build up. And we talk and talk and we do chat. But The thing is, it's an unscripted and real conversations with real people that's the best thing of this podcast show. Absolutely. And I think, you know, there's so many things out there, time and place and context. There's places where you need to be your brand advocate and you're talking about brand and that language is different. The language up here is different. So you know, answer one of your other questions.

25:25 I've learned those things as well of, of where to where you can take up space. And I think the important bit is there is how much space you take up, You know, walking into a room and suddenly being the big, whoa, look at me, look at me isn't the right thing to do when you've got a room full of other people. And it's about allowing people to showcase themselves and be themselves as well. And it's about me creating space for other people as well. And it depends what role I'm in. You know, if I'm in a a board meeting and I'm one of the trustees, then it's all the other trustees as well all together.

26:03 If I'm when I was chairing, I knew I had to lead. So therefore that was a different kind of space I was taking up. But going back to taking up space in the art world, fashion world, creative world, at the beginning, it was very hard. You know, there were people at the time and that were being everyday real at that stage. It was like one of the interviews I'd went to, and it was, what's a brown boy going to bring to the fashion industry, you know? And at that stage, being quite naive and enthusiastic and everything else, it was really taken aback by it.

26:35 But that gave me fuel, that gave me fire, that gave me like, well, I'll show you what Brown, let me ask you. Something, let me ask you something about this, only the what brown boys can bring into the fashion show. I think in the fashion industry, if you see brown guys are making impact actually. Who was your inspiration in fashion industry? So I'm a bit of a purist as well. So in terms of if we just take about who inspired me as designers and creative, obviously there was the time I was studying, there was Alexander McQueen, there was John Galliano, and before that Valenciaga Crista Boba, you know, those sort of very beautifully constructed made clothes.

27:19 And that was something I really learnt and sort of instilled into me from an early stage when I started my degree. And This is why I came here to where I did my degree. It was they will teach you how to make proper clothes, properly construct clothes in the pattern and in the sewing and the making. Because the whole concept was if you learn how to make proper clothes, then you can break the rules, then you can create. Because it's one thing creating and designing. And I always say that as illustrators, they're beautiful.

27:50 But how are you bringing that to life? How is that massive shoulder space going to stay up? How is that going to feel comfortable? How are you, you know, where's the suppression? Where's the darts? What under structure have you got is, you know, strapless dresses, they're corsetry hidden underneath so that the silk or the bead, whatever fabric you've got on top just flows. There's a hole under construction. So yeah, it's. But then, you know, what I spoke about was about 2025 years ago. So the world has changed.

28:26 And now in brown fashion, you know, Sobia Saatchi, of course, is king and Malhotra, and they're just who have mustered, you know, and recently looking at Rahul Mishra, Cut your side of it. And I'm loving that they bring in that concept of Sunat and Dharma Hinduism and exploring those avenues. You know, that's something I've done from a long time, from the very beginning. My early collections are called Shakti Vision. And it was always, yeah, exploring those concepts of vaguism. And I think recently in Cairns also, Manish Malhotra and Sabesachi, they shined with some thermic and this kind of designs.

29:11 And I think that was, you know, that was applauded by many Western people. Absolutely. You know, I think for a long time as well, the idea was there to bring that Indian Ness Easternness to it. But you know, like anything, for me personally, having a norm sign or a symbols literally printed onto the top or T-shirt is not good. You know, I think, you know, it's far more intelligent than that and it's concepts and it's ideas and it's living and experiencing and learning and it's bringing all those things together through clothing.

29:48 Of course, you mentioned that fashion helped you understand power and protection. Is there a part of your own identity that took longer to feel powerful than the others? OK, OK, it's a very good question. Again, just being me and then going back to a few things is being out, being gay in that sense, to just be very proud, unapologetic. And this is me. And so clothing I, I dress in black. That's my thing. And, and I love that because I believe that it gives me a nice canvas to then start putting on accessories and to be able to dress it up and dress it down.

30:29 And then for me, as most designers and creators do, black is that great silhouette and it helps you look slimmer as well.

30:40 What is the secret behind this salt and pepper look?

30:47 I'm not sure it's all natural, it's all real and about 10 years ago I started to go and get grey and the first time to get my first 3 grey hairs and I did panic a little and I've only ever done it once where I bought one of those home dying hey kids. I dyed it black and it looked so plastic and it looked horrendous and then a couple of weeks later all the roots started coming through. Then I thought, you know what? If this is how nature's intended me to be? It's just going with the flow going, aging with the flow.

31:16 That's it, That's it. You said that courage is what you had. One for one person to take from this, realizing they don't need permission to begin. So what's something you're still waiting for permission on even now?

31:33 I'd like to think not a lot really, but I'd say not as big as that. I think it's so we're at a stage now where we're we've been rebuilding, refreshing and almost like a relaunch back into the fashion scene. So those moments are giving me or needing to be more courageous because then we're putting ourselves back out there again to be critiqued, to be judged. And sometimes you can live in your own bubble, which is not a bad thing as long as everything's working. But if we want to get bigger, get more credible and get more exposure to get a wider network of clients, then having to be courageous to put ourselves out there so that the work is critiqued from a fashion point of view, not just that oh, this is good or this is bad.

32:21 So those things, sometimes it's walking into bigger rooms when you're walking into industry professionals, what's the right word would be people in the public eye, you know, people that have influence and it's being courageous. And, and I guess it comes back the human element again, isn't it? Because ultimately we all want to be liked. We all like, want to be loved and we all want to be understood. So I think it's sometimes being courageous, but then also knowing that I'm not everyone's cup of tea.

32:55 I'm unique and I, I dance to my own beat. I always have always had to. And as I'm getting older, I'm far more comfortable with having a far smaller inner circle and being very truthful and honest and as I am with my friends and that. And I think that gives me good a good level to be content with who I am and where I am at, where I am at. Judging. There are always two people. Two groups actually, one group always is like fashion designing and this creative couture thing is very easy and it's just like flick and they can immediately open a couture or boutique or something.

33:37 And one group like you, I can say, who has struggled and started from scratch, learned and trained everything for themselves, being on end to the smallest, smallest minute, minute details. And then they came on on a top scale. So what do you want to say for people who are starting this as a career, women or men or kids? Because, you know, nowadays, even kids, they are this Gen. Z kids more into fashion. Yeah. They, they think that whatever they do, it's a fashion. Yeah. And it's a new thing. So what do you suggest to those people?

34:22 And of course, a study is required even before the fashion studies. A normal study is required to reach on that level. So what do you suggest for them?

34:34 I mean, again, a very good question for me, I would say just learn who you are, be true to yourself. You know, we, we work with a lot of the younger generation, we take on work experience in terms of fashion for degree students, MA students in the session or lecturing. So you know, I have a good connection with them. And I always say, look, it's your life. What do you want out of it? What do you want to achieve? Enormous. Do like a you don't have to be a big thing, but on a piece of paper, write down where you'd like to be in an ideal world in five years, where you'd like to be in 10 years.

35:13 And then almost start working backwards and see what's realistic and what you need to study, what you need to experience, what other skills you need to pick up. But ultimately, you know, a career is a career for me, my career is my life. Everything is intertwined. And for me, I'm happy, I'm content, I, I'm ambitious. I've still got a lot of things I want to achieve, but it's, it's what I want to achieve. It's very different to what somebody else would want to. So I think it's knowing where you want to go, having a road map, and it doesn't mean you're going to a straight road map.

35:50 But my journey, like everybody else's has been like this and they're thinking I want to get to the top of the mountain and I might have to go straight up or I could go round or I could get a helicopter. However, everybody's path is different and I think that comes down to a measure of success. And that's a bigger, bigger thing about what's a real concern in the younger generation at the moment with social media, this idea that other people are far more successful than you are, that then builds your anxiety, brings that you're not good enough to do that.

36:19 But then that's a way of showcasing to people on social media. The reality sometimes are very, very different. So I think it's what makes you happy. You know, some people is, do you want to be married? Do you want to have children? Where do you want to live? Who do you want to have your life surrounded by? So if you've got those things, then everything should just automatically fall into place.

36:45 Thank you, Jatin. And tell me, where can people find you and what's your work going on and what's next coming from you? Right. So on our website, kalikazama.com, we've got a new website being launched in about a week and 1/2 we're hoping to get back into the whole British Fashion Council and really just networking going out. We've been working with different partners, content, really building those foundations again to to to relaunch and ultimately really exploring routes into India. Oh wow, yes so Kalika's armour is only in United Kingdom right now, nowhere else branch is there.

37:28 No, we've got the studio at the moment, but for clients anywhere else, we can come to your hotel rooms, we can come to. We've done fittings at airports, we've done all sorts of stuff. So, you know, so again, everything can be figured out, everything can be covered and we can do IT service to somebody at the other side of the world. And it was viable. And now with the power of technology, virtual calls, fittings, you know, physical things, you can, you can make it work if there's a desire. You know, where there's a will, there's always a way to make it work.

38:01 Do you think there's a word casually? You told us that you can't do anything casually. A dinner, a message, an outfit always becomes a full production. What's the most recent everyday thing you accidentally turned into an event? What, what haven't I turned into an event is which would be the question. OK, So what we've done recently, recently.

38:31 So we had a dinner party, literally, and that was just meant to be a few friends coming over. And then that went from just a few friends coming over to have a casual lunch to making sure that the table was set right. Everything was colour coordinated. Centrepieces sometimes go over the top, little nameplates, you know, making sure everyone's got their own drinks that they like, you know, this, that sort of thing. But then the bigger side, my parents turned, oh, both turned 70 this year and it was their golden wedding anniversary in the summer.

39:03 And so we convinced them to celebrate 50 years of marriage. And I mean that, that, that needs celebrating. And so they've agreed to having a small celebration with their friends and gathering. And then I kind of turned that into hiring a really beautiful venue in the Midlands. 150 guests spit down 4 courses, DJ everything. And that turned into a proper production as well, which I was very grateful for. But then I got so caught up into all the details of the table numbers, the table settings, everything being colour coordinated, working through the itinerary down to we're having a joke with the actual venue event team saying that they'd never received such a long and detailed itinerary of who was doing what when was happening, the timings.

39:52 Look, I think it comes down to this for me, if I'm going to do something, do something properly or don't bother. So even a funny moment Jatin can't do casually that also comes with entire production. Something like that, yes. So Jatin's whole story comes down to one idea only. The work doesn't have to be perfect to be powerful. Sometimes the clarity and the confidence only show up once you have already started Jatin's links. How to contact him and the website details are in the show notes below.

40:28 Jatin, thank you so much for building this with me today. Until next time, this has been everyday conversations. Goodbye. Thank you, Jatin. Thank you very much, been a pleasure.